Nabra Nelson: Salam Alaikum. Welcome to Kunafa and Shay, a podcast produced for HowlRound Theatre Commons, a free and open platform for theatremakers worldwide. Kunafa and Shay discusses and analyzes up to date and historic, center Japanese and North Africa, or MENA Theatre from throughout the area.
Marina Johnson: I am Marina.
Nabra: And I am Nabra.
Marina: And we’re your hosts.
Nabra: Our title, “Kunafa and Shay,” invitations you into the dialogue in one of the best ways we all know how, with advanced and scrumptious sweets, like Kunafa and completely heat tea or in Arabic, Shay.
Marina: Kunafa and Shay is a spot to share experiences, concepts, and typically, to have interaction with our variations. In every nation within the Arab world, you may discover Kunafa made in another way. In that manner, we additionally lean into the range, complexity, and sturdy flavors of MENA theatre. We convey our personal views, analysis, and particular friends as a way to begin a dialogue and encourage additional studying and dialogue.
Nabra: In our third season, we spotlight queer MENA and SWANA or Southwest Asian North African theatremakers and dive into the breadth of queerness current of their artwork.
Marina: Yalla. Seize your tea. The shay is good.
Nabra: How can we consider queerness as a type of political intervention? On this episode, we discuss with Erdem Avşar about Turkish theatre, queer utopias, and ghosts. We study components of Turkish theatre, together with why there are such a lot of queer ghosts in Turkish impartial theatre. We study queer dramaturgies in Turkish and worldwide theatre, talk about translation into and from Turkish, rethink temporality in playwriting, and query what queer utopias seem like on stage.
Marina: Erdem Avşar is an LKAS PhD researcher on the College of Glasgow. His analysis focuses on queer dramaturgies, sociology of grief and hope, and utopian pondering. He is an affiliate artist at UNESCO RILA. He was the 2019 recipient of the Kevin Elyot Award. His performs have been proven in Scotland and Italy. His inventive work has lately appeared in Clavmag, within the Anthology, TheBook of Dangerous Betties, and within the edited quantity, Collaborative Playwriting, printed by Routledge. His most up-to-date educational work on queer ghosts on the Turkish levels has been printed as a part of the Queer Efficiency particular problem of Modern Theatre Assessment. He translated works of Zinnie Harris, Kieran Hurley, Gary McNair, David Harrower, and DC Jackson into Turkish. His translation of Harris’s Midwinter premiered on the DOT Theatre and was listed within the 2017 honors checklist of Eurodram.
It is actually nice to have you ever with us. Thanks for becoming a member of us at present from the UK.
Erdem Avşar: Properly, thanks for inviting me. I am actually, actually joyful to be right here. Yeah, such a delight. And yeah, earlier than we start, truly, I’ve to say, that your podcast, I imply, it is such a pleasant factor and because of Ayçan, I found the podcast and it is such an honor to be right here. And I listened to the particular stay version, I believe it was on the affinity areas, simply the opposite day, and it is given me a lot hope, and possibly we’ll discuss this later anyway, however I am instantly drawn to issues that might give folks some form of queer hope. So it was such an honor to be right here. So thanks very a lot.
Marina: No, thanks. And thanks to Aycan. Shout out as a result of we posted one in all our podcast episodes on Instagram and he or she reached out and was like, “Really, there’s this particular person it’s important to discuss to.” And we have been like, “Okay, we’re on it.” So, thanks Aycan.
Erdem: She’s nice. She’s nice.
Nabra: So for listeners who aren’t aware of the theatrical panorama proper now in Turkey, are you able to simply give a short overview of what is occurring proper now?
Erdem: Yeah, after all. So simply to contextualize issues, a little bit bit in my perspective on this, so each as a researcher, PhD researcher and theatremakers, I am most aware of the impartial theatremaking scene in Istanbul and in Turkey, usually. So I’ve labored as a playwright, a dramaturg, and a translator for over ten years now, however all of that work has been with impartial theatre firms. So that is going to sound a bit possibly simplistic, however I believe it is honest to say that there is all the time been two predominant camps in theatremaking and in efficiency ecologies in Turkey.
So the primary one can be, I believe we are able to hint it again to the late Ottoman Empire occasions and the early basis years of the Republic. And that’s just about the state funded state theatres, together with municipality theatres. They usually’ve all the time been, and nonetheless, I believe, that is the case, they’re just about serious about new renditions and reworkings of Henrik Ibsen, Chekhov, and Shakespeare and all types of Western canonical classics. Whereas the impartial theatre scene, I believe, has been fairly significantly energetic previously, form of three, 4 a long time now. They usually’re principally working in direction of producing new texts and new dramaturgies, and so they’re actually form of politically and socially engaged. So we at the moment are wanting on the actually thrilling, thrilling, theatrical panorama in Turkey. I believe so, I believe in a nutshell, two predominant camps, not essentially competing with one another, however yeah.
Nabra: Are you able to discuss to us a little bit bit about what a few of these new dramaturgies and new works which are of curiosity, particularly within the impartial theatre scene in Turkey? Is it loads of Turkish works? Is it loads of native works? What are you seeing in that world?
Erdem: Yeah, I believe most of them are new texts produced by new writers working in Turkey. We see translations of works as properly on these impartial levels too. In order that’s very nice. I believe most of them are fairly political of their subject material, but additionally, from a queer dramaturgies perspective, in case you like, and from a queer efficiency perspective, what I discover actually fascinating is that there is nearly like, it feels to me, that there is an unrehearsed, collective resolution that is being made and given by these great theatremakers. To me, it seems like they’ve determined to barely destabilize temporalities. There’s all the time nonchronological, it is nearly like nonlinear. So there’s this actually beautiful intervention in that sense of, we should always actually change the time and the way it works and our notion of it, which I discover completely thrilling. So yeah, no matter I believe the subject material or the characters or how they label themselves, I believe this is likely one of the linchpins, in case you like, that queer performers and theatremakers share of their dramaturgies. So yeah, I believe construction performs a very important half in that as properly. Yeah.
Marina: Oh, that is very cool. Properly, and so that you write about dramaturgy as a type of political intervention, and I believe possibly only for some listeners who’re listening in, possibly defining what you consider as a dramaturgy, I believe can be helpful. However then additionally, what do these dramaturgies seem like in several methods? You simply talked some about them, however yeah, queer dramaturgies as political intervention is a superb phrase that you’ve used to explain the work that you’re doing and .
Erdem: Properly, thanks a lot for that. Yeah, so I believe, properly, whenever you say, a political intervention, usually, I do not imply theatremaking or queer dramaturgies or queer efficiency or any actually, murals or any development of creating artwork, may exchange the precise queer politics. In order that’s not truly what I imply. However after I say efficiency and theatremaking can have a capability of some form of political intervention, I imply, the best way that we see these dramaturgies and performs on levels, how we strategy them as viewers members, how we strategy them as theatremakers, and the way we strategy them as researchers, as properly.
So yeah, that is truly actually, I believe it is a good instance. So I have been eager about this quite a bit by way of how we queer issues, typically I really feel prefer it simply feels a bit too up to date, and I all the time strive to return way back to attainable. So once more, going again to how theatremaking had this actually form of nation constructing character within the early years of the Turkish Republic. So it was all the time prefer it got here with this ahead movement. It was a form of a nation constructing character. It was one thing that might “modernize,” in citation marks, the Turkish audiences. So it was nearly like a facade or a form of a route that stored wanting forwards, in a manner.
It was known as Darülbedayi, this was the Ottoman or Turkish title for municipality theaters, and it was state funded and so they principally labored on translations and once more, Western canonical works. So by way of how we queer issues, I believe, going again to that form of lineage is actually attention-grabbing as properly. Generally we do not essentially consciously attempt to dismantle these issues, nevertheless it hones us and the complete present theatrical panorama as properly. It has been a few months, however I discovered this actually barely hilarious and annoying and patronizing letter that was despatched to this Darülbedayi journal and this was again in… Let me inform you, I am checking my notes as a result of I am properly ready. It must be 1935, and it is simply… Would you thoughts if I simply provide you with a little bit little bit of that?
Marina: Please.
Nabra: Go forward. Sure.
Erdem: Thanks. Apologies, listeners. So it is a younger scholar. Once more, I imply, think about the very early years of the Republic, and he has simply seen Hamlet within the municipality theatre. So he says to the editor, and he needs this letter to be printed within the journal. He says, “I am a scholar who follows Municipality Theatre’s drama repertoire regularly. I additionally attempt to observe operettas at any time when I can afford to take action. I’ve had the apportion to have the benefit of seeing these performs and my intention with this letter is as follows. Prior to now years, you used the pen columns on learn how to see a play within the Municipality Theatre Journal. This 12 months, you have got stopped doing this. Please relaxation assured that this 12 months is the very 12 months that these columns are most required.” As a result of he is seen this Hamlet manufacturing.
After which he says, “We’re kindly interesting to you, please clarify to the general public in your amiable fashion that they can’t eat pumpkin seeds whereas seeing a play, particularly if it is a drama, that they should not giggle after they’re presupposed to cry, not to mention cough loudly, and that they can’t come to theatre after having one over the eight within the night. The odor of a butcher store very a lot disturbed the folks on the opening evening of Hamlet and spoiled the pleasure for us.”
So this, I believe, sorry, I simply quoted at size, however I had a lot enjoyable translating this. I used to be like, “I simply want share this with Marina and Nabra and everybody else. I imply, I do know it has been greater than seventy years now, however I discover this actually attention-grabbing by way of political intervention at present in Turkey. So we aren’t solely intervening into this day, we’re nonetheless scuffling with these types of theatremaking that just about advised folks learn how to stay their lives. So it had a form of regulatory character as properly. However yeah, so I discover that actually attention-grabbing.
Marina: Oh, that is fascinating. Thanks for sharing that with us. Wow. Yeah, I am all the time serious about archival materials like that, that is actually portray an image of this, I do not know, battle or rigidity that was arising in several methods, however that additionally, are pointing in direction of these colonial forces in theatre which have dictated what expectations are. After which I do suppose that queering these is such an essential a part of what occurs. And likewise it is one thing I battle with right here within the States in theatre as a result of so lots of these colonial issues are additionally now legal responsibility issues. Folks cannot sit in a seat after which reenter after they go to the lavatory as a result of it is a legal responsibility factor. They may journey on the steps after they come again in. And so yeah, these holdovers I believe are actually fascinating and one thing I prefer to suppose by way of and with.
Erdem: Yeah, yeah. No, completely. Completely. And it is simply, yeah, and I believe it turns into much more significant to consider these issues, like, flash ahead to 2020, 2023, and the final decade. What we see is tiny black containers and chairs clearly, aren’t correct, however the exhibits are all the time bought out, in order that’s good. And the dramaturgies, I imply, like I stated earlier, by way of how they configure and reconfigure their temporalities, they’re fairly messy. They’re messy by way of how their form of dramaturgies and dramatic techniques are organized. We see various solo performances that’s principally primarily based on storytelling and queer storytelling. Most of them are semi-autobiographical works. Auto fiction performs a very massive half in that. We see neighborhood initiatives as properly. So it is gloriously messy, and I do not suppose this scholar would not be joyful to see that. So yeah, it is simply their queer pleasure.
Marina: Sure, embracing the mess. Oh, I like that. Properly, so I imply, so far as queer pleasure goes, you even have written about queer Utopias, which jogs my memory after all of Muñoz for these listening, José Esteban Muñoz and Cruising Utopia. However are you able to inform us extra about what you suppose the sociopolitical implications of queer utopias on stage are? And I do not know if that is an attention-grabbing beginning place for us. We may additionally take that in several instructions of possibly, queer pleasure on stage too, somewhere else.
If you’re hungry, whenever you’re infuriated, whenever you’re drained, dispossessed, and terrorized continually, or when you have got misplaced your family members,…utopia possibly can serve to salvage a few of that, your selfhood and your compromised sense of company.
Erdem: Yeah, yeah, completely. Yeah, no, thanks a lot for that. Yeah, it is a unusual factor, do not you suppose? Occupied with utopias, and utopias on stage, particularly given how issues are on the earth. So I believe, there’s one a part of me, like I stated, that’s fully drawn and thrilled by queer hope in any manner. However you simply talked about Muñoz. I completely adore, adore, adore, Cruising Utopia, such an exquisite work. However what I additionally actually like about that work is that as a result of it has actually knowledgeable the best way that I take into consideration queer utopias and utopias and utopia pondering usually, as properly. It is clearly, Muñoz drew on Ernst Bloch’s concept that we want the will, however that want needed to be an informed want. So I all the time wish to hold reminding folks, particularly in educational context, that after we say utopia, we do not essentially imply naivety or I imply, we’d and we are able to, and possibly we must be allowed to speak about naivety in that sense as properly.
But when we’re actually going again to Bloch or Muñoz or different Utopian theorists and thinkers, it would not essentially imply that turning your again on how terrible issues are and simply creating this actually, this illusory secure house for your self. That does not imply that you’re going to be fully indifferent from the political and social realities and the terrible injustices. And I believe, as a result of as quickly as you say that you would be able to nonetheless think about utopias on stage, not solely in Turkey, elsewhere as properly, it instantly brings not very good inquiries to thoughts. It is simply that you do not essentially wish to take into consideration these issues as a result of it’s a difficult, and it’s actually not very good to consider utopia in a form of restricted manner.
However yeah, it’s actually unusual. As a result of I keep in mind, I believe this was in 2021, and I attended this pretty massive sociology convention in Europe. I had introduced the work on queer temporalities on the Turkish stage. I did not essentially discuss utopias all through the presentation, however in the long run, I did point out utopian pondering and stated, so whenever you’re hungry, whenever you’re infuriated, whenever you’re drained, dispossessed, and terrorized continually, or when you have got misplaced your family members, or in case you’re continually on this terrible anticipation of loss in any manner, utopia possibly can serve to salvage a few of that, your selfhood and your compromised sense of company, if it is an informed want, like Muñoz and Ernst Bloch says, you possibly can possibly get that want and discover one thing significant, regardless of each single factor that is occurring.
However the Q and A was actually difficult. It wasn’t cynical in any respect, and I believe it got here from a passionate place in direction of how social theorists usually really feel in direction of utopias. I believe it was fairly, possibly overprotective, I would say. In order quickly as you begin speaking about on a regular basis utopias and what you truly can do with the life that you just’re attempting to navigate, it simply seems like, I believe, particularly like I stated, some social thinkers attempt to defend and safeguard the thought of utopia as one thing that occurs elsewhen and elsewhere, in order that it is simply this pure thought. However what we see on stage, I believe in Turkey, and once more elsewhere, particularly within the Center East, I would say, it is not essentially rivers of the drink of your personal alternative, like rivers of wine, and birds with eight legs, prefer it’s providing you some form of divine intervention. Here is your peaceable social contract. We’re not that, we’re genuinely dramaturgies, who, like Jill Dolan says, that barely carry you up a little bit bit above this present actuality to be able to possibly reassured that issues can certainly be totally different, if that is sensible.
Marina: It does. Properly, and I admire what you are speaking about right here of additionally preserving the self, as a result of we won’t go on if we’re not in a position to transfer ourselves above a little bit bit. But additionally, that we’re not imagining a binaristic world. We’re resisting binaries in all types. It is not simply this world that’s pure in sure methods. It is all the time eager about what the in-betweens of issues are, and particularly, refusing an apolitical form of utopia, as a result of that is simply not the best way that we, I believe hopefully, as a gaggle right here, undoubtedly, after which exterior to consider what an excellent house would seem like.
Nabra: Do you have got any particular examples of utopias on stage that you just really feel have completed it proper or have actually analyzed the thought of utopia and introduced that in a manner that’s, I assume, constructive?
Erdem: Yeah, it is actually bizarre, as a result of we have been speaking about queer messiness as properly, and the best way that I work will not be very messy. I actually like pondering in classifications and categorizations, so I usually begin from a very neat place. So yeah, taxonomical pondering, I’m an enormous fan. So yeah, going again to, I imply, each my PhD analysis and what I have been writing about, so I believe there are possibly three strands of question matters that we see on stage in up to date theatrical panorama in Turkey. And I believe the primary one is, fairly form of political in subject material as properly. I am pondering of possibly performs like, great playwright, Şâmil Yılmaz’s Avzer, Wipe Your Tears, Nothing is ever Going to be the Identical Anymore. And it is such a stupendous title as properly. It is fairly utopian. The utopian performative is embedded within the title. So, Şâmil all the time has this wonderful manner of developing with stunning titles.
Anyway, so yeah, Şâmil Yılmaz’s Avzer, as an illustration, I believe, one of many first ones that come to thoughts and what he does by way of dramaturgy, I believe, once more, it is fairly form of an on a regular basis utopia, nevertheless it’s nearly self-corrective and actually dignified. And he talked about this rather a lot as properly, after I interviewed him for my PhD analysis as properly. So I used to be actually, actually thrilled to listen to this. However I say self-corrective as a result of Avzer, this play, appears again on the Gezi Park rebellion in 2013 that occurred in Turkey, and it was one of many greatest civil uprisings that occurred in opposition to the ruling regime and the AKP, the political occasion that is been main the nation for a very very long time now. And Shamil chooses to put in writing about this protagonist, Avzer, who says that, “I’ve…” Not in these actual phrases, and I hope I am doing justice to his stunning phrases, however who says, “I’ve an evil. I’ve an terrible creature inside me residing inside me, and I’ve been doing my greatest to form of quieten him down.”
So that is barely unusual as a picture to consider and to speak about in a Utopian context. However then we discover out that the one cause why this was a solo efficiency, the one cause why the performer enjoying the character, Avzer, the one cause why he seems on the stage each single evening is as a result of this homeless, bisexual man met a wonderful couple in the course of the protests, and he made associates with them, and he found some form of alliance that he did not actually have in his life earlier than. And when the crackdown, I believe, the response to the crackdown needed to be a withdrawal of some kind. So the protests quieten down a little bit bit and Avzer finds himself once more within the streets, however with out his new associates. So he is on the stage each single evening looking for them once more, and he principally tries to see if they are often among the many viewers members.
So it is simply, within the current time, that is such a heartbreaking factor. However then once more, I believe it’s form of, fairly utopian within the sense that it’s dignified. Possibly it’s also a manner of holding your dignity intact when the police forces, when an authoritarian authorities, tries to take that dignity away from you. So in that sense, I believe it is simply stunning and it is also self-corrective as a result of no rebellion and no resistance, no collective processes are unproblematic. I am undecided in case you would agree, however I imply, simply even in a neighborhood, we hold speaking about communities, nevertheless it’s by no means actually unproblematic. So I believe it is self-corrective within the sense that Şâmil feels not solely prepared, however keen to revisit these moments and say, “Properly, truly, after we left the streets, we additionally left a few of our associates behind, and people associates have been already associates who have been dwelling in poverty, who have been already within the streets as a part of their on a regular basis lives.”
So how can we truly make it possible for possibly theatres and playwriting can handle a few of these? However that is additionally, partly, the best way that I learn Şâmil’s play, and if he was right here, he can be in all probability, “Properly, yeah, possibly, however is it actually a utopia? I am probably not positive.” However yeah, so this is likely one of the first examples that involves my thoughts, and there are different clearly examples as properly, attempting to find utopian performatives in on a regular basis somewhere else, similar to astonishment and being astonished by each single factor in life, or once more, barely difficult the linearity of time as properly.
Marina: Yeah. Properly, that really leads rather well into the subsequent query, which I needed to speak about queer temporality. So one in all your most up-to-date articles, which we’ll hyperlink within the textual content of the podcast that individuals can learn, to allow them to hopefully, learn and discover the article, in the event that they’re . So one in all your latest articles, which is known as Haunted Taxonomies, Converging Temporalities Ghosts on the Phases of Istanbul. It talks about temporality, “The place queer ghosts on stage don’t merely open a vortex into an extended gone previous, however serve to create a temporal zone inside which queer pasts, presents, and futures converge.”
So I’d love to listen to you discuss extra about that. To begin with, possibly simply giving folks an outline of the paper, as a result of it is an awesome learn, however I do know that typically, people, even in case you love studying educational articles, aren’t swimming within the time to learn them proper now. So possibly giving us a little bit abstract there, however then additionally, speaking extra about the way you theorize queer temporality, though I do suppose the sentence that you just wrote sums issues up fairly properly. After which additionally, what are the implications of queer temporality?
Erdem: Properly, thanks very a lot. Yeah, actually, actually love the verse. I actually admire it. Thanks. Yeah, it is actually humorous although, whenever you have been studying the quote out loud, I simply thought, “Erdem, you all the time discuss an excessive amount of.” So even the title was endless, interminably lengthy.
Marina: I like the colon title.
Erdem: Thanks. Thanks. So yeah, this was, once more, roughly like a discovery. This wasn’t actually what I had in thoughts after I began doing my PhD on queer theatre and queer efficiency. I did not actually anticipate that I’d spend ages eager about queer utopias and queer ghosts and hauntology, and all types of zombies and vampires and pleasant ghosts on the stage. It wasn’t actually obvious to me in any respect. However there was one second. So after I first began my PhD, I began amassing all these performs, and in a manner, I used to be creating my very own form of archive, in case you like, of performs. So I used to be holding my database, I used to be getting into all these titles, theatremakers, playwrights, a fast abstract of issues, and possibly a few key phrases. It was, I imply, from the surface, it appears like a hideous Excel spreadsheet, and it’s, however I spent so lengthy with that. And it is simply, you understand how like, you retain gazing one factor, after which it simply retains giving and giving, that I genuinely, solely realized that, by way of that archive, that just about half of these performs, and I had, I believe, almost fifty performs, queer dramaturgies, I would say, once more, developed in Turkey previously form of fifteen years. I simply realized nearly half of them have been brimming with some form of spectorality.
So both, our storytellers have been ghosts, however they did not actually inform us that, proper from the get go. So that you solely, in direction of the top of the play, then you definately go, “Okay, so you have been useless the entire time. So it is a ghost story.” I imply, it is simply unimaginable. So we had these, and in some performs, that you already know as quickly as one of many characters come up on stage, it is one of many first issues that they acknowledge to the viewers members. They go, “I’m a ghost and I died.” Both by the hands of a consumer, if the character is a intercourse employee, particularly if they are a trans-feminine intercourse employee, there’s fairly a sample there as properly that we see in queer dramaturgies in Turkey. Or typically within the arms of a police officer or in a public protest. So typically it is fairly apparent.
However yeah, it wasn’t actually till I had that complete spreadsheet in entrance of me, solely then, I went, “Properly, okay. Really, this complete database is simply fully haunted.” So then, I began asking questions round, so what does that imply actually, by way of, once more, such as you stated, by way of the sociopolitical implications, but additionally I believe, the query that actually impressed that work was, it got here from Jack Halberstam’s work the place he says, “To inform a ghost’s story means, being keen to be haunted.” And I believe it’s only a great quote as a result of that is maybe one of many the reason why we hold telling these tales. For those who weren’t actually keen to be haunted, why would you inform a ghost story?
So then I began asking all types of bizarre inquiries to that database. Questions like, “Properly, if these theatremakers are actually keen to be haunted, so why are they actually conjuring these ghosts? So what do they need?” A ghost nearly all the time needs one thing. So this might have been additionally, a particular Halloween podcast episode pondering of it. So yeah, I believe the query then was for me, once more, to develop some form of taxonomy, was that, so what do they need? And I believe it is an essential query to ask as a result of if we hold speaking about ghosts and different worldly creatures that hold haunting our current tense, it’s fairly anti-utopian within the sense that it may be typically company destructing, if that is sensible, as a result of it is too late for the whole lot anyway. Yeah. And as an viewers member as properly, I believe temporality performed a very important half in that. So I am not solely speaking about time and temporality by way of dramaturgies, however by way of how viewers members interact with a sure work.
This was, I believe, 2015, and I had simply seen 80’lerde Lubunya Olmak, an exquisite play, which roughly interprets as, Being a Queer within the Eighties, and this was an adaptation of an oral historical past assortment the place trans intercourse employees and trans-feminine folks look again on their lives, again within the eighties, and so they discuss concerning the Turkish coup d’etat within the eighties, how they have been compelled exiled, how they could not actually survive in closely gentrified and fairly aggressively gentrified, areas, city areas in Istanbul and elsewhere in Turkey. It was, the construction, I believe, is kind of acquainted to us now. We had 4 monologues, intercutting and we had 4 girls on stage, telling their tales and telling their narratives.
I believe it was fairly solidarity enhancing in a manner, once more, for a similar causes, to have the ability to be in that house with different folks and strangers within the current tense. And that feeling of like, “Okay, so the struggles again in 2015 then, the struggles that I’m navigating aren’t solely distinctive to me.” So it could actually make you actually form of melancholic, however it could actually additionally make you search additional alliances and additional solidarities with different folks. I believe it could actually set off that form of educated want once more, in case you like. However I keep in mind leaving the venue and I used to be actually amazed, and I stored eager about the play. However then once more, I had different associates with me as properly that we stored speaking about, that was a very beautiful post-show stroll to Taksim Sq. in Istanbul, from the venue, and we talked about how acquainted it felt. And we did not actually know what to do with that.
Then wanting again on it now, I believe that actually impressed me. So it is not solely within the dramaturgical sense that these characters and these theatremakers are providing us new reconfigurations of time, but additionally, it destabilizes your personal sense of self and your personal sense of time as properly. ‘Trigger if these ghosts can shuttle throughout totally different timelines, together with the very time zone of, or the timescape of an viewers member as properly, within the current time, then which means it’s a convergence, reasonably than simply making a queer mess, which I am additionally an enormous fan of. However yeah, in order that was, I believe, simply random seeds.
Marina: Oh my gosh, so many nice seeds and so many instructions that we may take this. However I like listening to you. I do know that you just and I do not… And Nabra. Nabra is an honorary PhD in lots of senses, however I believe we do not usually discuss with students on the podcast. To not additional divide the artist/scholar binary that individuals get positioned into. However what I like about listening to you discuss your work is that that is a lot of what I believe scholarship is, that individuals do not perceive. I believe that there is a lot of this considered folks sitting away in a room and simply writing, which is true, for an period of time. However an archive and seeing what exists there, after which asking these questions on why are folks eager about ghosts proper now? What are ghosts doing as a conference or as a personality on stage, and what does that say concerning the politics of our time?
What does that say concerning the place that we’re making theatre? What does this say about Turkey proper now? I imply, I believe these are the questions that… And you are not only a scholar, so we’ll discuss extra about that quickly too. However I like listening to this as a result of I do suppose that when we now have totally different artists on, it is nice simply to listen to these balanced issues about somebody is making this work with ghosts, after which you might be asking these sensible questions from this archive that you have created or form of compiled collectively. So I am simply so appreciative of these seeds, and I form of needed to signpost that extra for people who find themselves listening too, of that is additionally such an enormous facet of world making, is that these worlds have then been created and also you’re form of excavating and parsing by way of them in another way. So yeah, I like that.
We’re all collectively making a world. So it is not solely the theatremakers, it is not solely the artists, however with the viewers members, with the researchers, with you, doing this podcast so lengthy now, is bringing folks collectively
Erdem: Thanks. Thanks a lot. Yeah, actually, actually beautiful phrases. However yeah, I believe my coronary heart melted a little bit bit whenever you stated world making, it is simply, yeah. Yeah, in that sense, I believe it is fairly, once more, utopian to consider these issues as properly, nevertheless it’s simply acknowledging the truth that we’re all collectively making a world. So it is not solely the theatremakers, it is not solely the artists, however with the viewers members, with the researchers, with you, doing this podcast so lengthy now, is bringing folks collectively. So it is all the time a world that is being made proper in entrance of us and made by us, collectively. However yeah, I believe, yeah, going again to, in case you do not thoughts, to the thought of taxonomy once more, I believe that is, once more, it is form of a scholarly factor, however probably not. And since then, I have been attempting to provide you with methods I have not actually succeeded on this but.
It is a work in progress, however I have been attempting to provide you with methods of making use of this to the best way that we see the world. I usually really feel like—particularly in queer idea and the best way that we talk about queer efficiency and queer theatre—it may be actually dense, it may be actually summary, it may be actually theoretical. However then once more, there’s one other aspect to that as properly, as a result of when you begin these performs from a form of a taxonomical perspective, like, “Okay, now I am attempting to grasp what these performs truly do, what these ghosts need on the stage, or what sort of utopias that we see on the stage which are being constructed, or what is the function, what is the implication?” Every kind of questions.
You then begin developing with this classification, and it, I believe, demystifies the factor as properly. Which we typically want, for us for the viewers members as properly. So reasonably than holding issues on this and shrouding them and concealing them, I believe it simply reveals all types of actually sensible tensions as properly for issues that we may possibly take in any other case, actually unified, by way of, once more, dramaturgies, as properly.
So whenever you take a look at one explicit, possibly cultural, political second in a given context, I believe it is actually form of troublesome and tough to withstand that tendency to homogenize issues. You wish to come to conclusions as properly, as a scholar. So that is what I wish to say. That is my argument. Here is your form of neatly packed conclusion. Even in case you say, “Properly, it is not neat,” however, once more, we all know the institutional expectations, it usually finally ends up being manner neater than you truly had anticipated within the first place.
So yeah, I believe it is fairly demystifying as properly, in that sense, which I actually like. So yeah, what do these queer ghosts need? I imply, a few of them to me, I discuss this within the article as properly, it simply seems like a few of them wish to educate us, the viewers members. Once more, holding your hand actually gently and saying, “Properly, we have been right here earlier than. We’re your queer ancestors, and we have seen worse. We have seen higher, and so listed here are the tales that we wish to share with you in order that possibly you do not find yourself feeling actually that lonely.” So it is not solely pedagogical in that sense, it is not like, “Here is the handbook of how one can truly stay and surmise.” It is not that.
However yeah, and a few of them search, I believe, some form of redress, how can we make issues higher and another performs, and one of many biggest examples of that, I believe is, I simply wish to pattern, it is, I believe it is being translated into English as properly. It is a great, great play by Ebru Nihan Celkan, Uzaydan Gelen Prens, The Prince from House, which additionally options the long-lasting pop singer and the icon Zeki Muren as properly, within the play. And Zeki Muren finds himself on this rainbow room, which is a purgatory for queers and Zeki Muren and his associates look down on the world and so they discover Umud, the youthful protagonist within the play, and he occurs to be the one alive queer in that play. They usually go, “Properly, okay, so this particular person clearly wants our assist, so how can we assist him? As a result of we now have the information, we now have the expertise, and he is typically making a mountain out of a molehill, so we should always assist him get his info straight.”
Properly, peculiar phrase alternative. However anyway, so they assist him go for an audition, follow. He needs to be a singer, songwriter, so they offer him a microphone. And it is simply this actually, that concept of speaking along with your queer ancestors, and that comes with its personal rigidity as properly, even within the play. I imply, Ebru does one thing actually wonderful. So Zeki Muren is not this heavenly determine. There are occasions when he feels fully unable to grasp Umud, this younger queer particular person, and Umud actually challenges Zeki Muren and says, “No, I truly do not want that. I imply, you have been an awesome, nice singer, so it is tremendous. If you wish to give me a tip or an recommendation on learn how to sing correctly, that is nice, however do not train me on how I could make love, how I can fall in love with any individual. I do not want that, since you have been terrible at that and also you simply remained your complete life in your closet.”
So it is simply discussions round visibility and popping out throughout generations of queerness. So in only one single play, and it is a piece, it is a youth theatre piece written by Ebru Nihan Celkan, so it is simply wonderful. So yeah, they’re in search of redress in a manner, embodied in different characters. I imply, some ghosts, I believe, do what a few of us queers do the most effective. They complain in a wonderful manner, complain and offend. I believe, that is simply unimaginable, to see a complaining character on stage. It is simply, the place is the complete international north textbook dramaturgy, which they principally inform you in any other case. In case your character is continually bickering, it is not actual. It is not real battle. It truly is. You see, bickering and complaining will be actually, as Sara Ahmed says, it may be a very great way of protest. So yeah, all types of questions, I believe, come by way of that taxonomical pondering. So what do they need? How can we classify these issues? It demystifies, even issues like queer ghosts, even they do not wish to acknowledge that they are ghosts more often than not. However yeah.
Nabra: That play sounds wonderful. Did you say it is a youth play?
Erdem: Yeah.
Marina: Unbelievable.
Nabra: That’s much more enjoyable. Yeah.
Marina: Can not wait to learn it. I additionally like the concept a bickering character goes in opposition to a world north dramaturgy. I am all about attempting to subvert regardless of the international north dramaturgies are which are attempting to be institutionalized somewhere else. Very cool.
Nabra: And we, after all, wish to discuss you as an artist. So we wish to finish with speaking about your playwriting. You are a poet as properly, and a translator. So how do you consider your work in contribution to the better theatre panorama? What sorts of issues do you write, and in addition, what sorts of performs are you interested by translating?
Erdem: Thanks a lot. God, yeah. I hope it makes some form of contribution. I hope I’ve managed to make some form of contribution to that theatrical panorama. So yeah, I believe, once more, this was a discovery. I do not suppose this was fairly obvious to me, after I first began writing performs. I all the time wrote brief tales and poems as a child, however I come from a working class household, and literature was part of our household life, I believe. My dad was a Marxist, in order that performed a task for positive. I keep in mind seeing tomes of outdated Russian literature, so we talked about that quite a bit. Nevertheless it was all the time one thing that we appreciated from a distance. So though literature was there within the household, I do not suppose it was one thing that we, myself and my sister, we may aspire to. And I believe that applies to performs as properly and dramaturgies.
We could not usually afford to go and see a present. We could not actually afford tickets. So for me, seeing a play wasn’t actually a factor, however studying a play was a factor. So for me, all the time existed in that form of working class sense of literature. And you might borrow a guide from a library after which simply learn once more, Ibsen, Chekhov, Shakespeare, all types of Western classics and Turkish performs as properly. However yeah, so I did not actually write a play for years. And looking out again on it now, I simply realized, that I believe, the one cause why I began writing a play was as a result of I felt like I wanted to reply to the world otherwise. And that form of coincided with, once more, the Gezi Park rebellion. So this was 2013. So I believe it felt actually overwhelming and in addition stunning and celebratory in so some ways.
However I believe that was my second the place I went, “Okay, I would like a unique manner of tackling this world.” So I began writing political performs, political within the sense that they have been, of their subject material, they have been fairly political, nearly verging on agitprop. It was a manner of shouting out, in a manner. And my pondering then has, and my works I believe, have advanced rather a lot. Then particularly, after I began my PhD, I began problematizing these issues as properly. So I believe, my trajectory modified from reenacting and responding to the exterior world from, once more, making worlds and constructing worlds and dealing on on a regular basis utopias. However yeah, I believe the contribution, although, I have been writing in English and Turkish on the identical time, so most of my performs are in English.
They have been carried out in Scotland, Italy, elsewhere as properly. So I believe if there is a contribution, I believe a kind of contributions is maybe the best way that these performs translate queerness from a Turkish context to different contexts, and never essentially by way of any individual else’s translation, however by dramaturgical translation on my own. In order that I discover actually attention-grabbing. And I believe, in terms of translating performs, I translate performs from English into Turkish. Once more, what I am actually drawn to, is performs which are queer, not solely by way of illustration and classes of legible identities, but additionally within the dramaturgies. And there is typically messiness or within the methods through which they provide us questions, reasonably than making statements concerning the world itself.
So I am actually drawn to that form of work. However I am significantly drawn to works of Zinnie Harris, a British playwright theatremaker… God, I am an enormous, enormous fan, and we labored collectively as properly. So that is simply completely pleasant. You do not actually get an opportunity to do this very often, particularly her play, Meet Me at Daybreak. I am nonetheless actually satisfied that I obtained to translate that play. I really feel actually, actually fortunate and privileged. Şafakta Buluş Benimle was the Turkish title translation, it was premiered at DOT Theatre in Istanbul and had such a stunning run. And yeah, I believe the listeners is perhaps serious about that as properly. It is a attractive play. It is a lesbian love story, nevertheless it’s all about grief. It is heartbreaking, however I believe it encapsulates each single factor that we talked about at present. It additionally offers you hope, nevertheless it’s additionally about remembering issues, how we keep in mind a beloved one and the way we cherish these recollections. And if you got one final probability, what would we do with that one last probability?
